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Does Warren Gatland hate North Wales?
There has been much furore in Wales this week at the selection of Osprey Paul James at tight-head, with even the man himself admitting he hasn't played there much (and by that he means two starts in four years) but that "he has the support of the lads", whatever difference that makes.
Gatland has made the point that the selection was necessary as there were zero tight-head options available with Adam Jones being knacked and they would prefer to keep Gethin Jenkins in his favoured loosie role. However, if the square-headed Kiwi had botherd to look north a bit and then across to the right a bit, then he would have found a bloke who is a specialist tight head playing regularly for his club; Eifion Roberts of Sale.
Roberts is from what you could call SuperWales, the rural heartlands of North Wales where English is often the second language to large numbers of inhabitants. This is part of the Scarlets' development area, however it is Sale that appears to do most of the recruitment up there and could this situation be creating a inherent contradiction that is working to Eifion's disadvantage? That is, Gatland's open bias towards Wales-based players means that anyone based outside the principality is at a disadvantage, but if Sale is the most realistic avenue to professional rugby for those in North Wales, where does this leave someone like Roberts?
Leaving aside these larger issues for a minute, I feel that with the injuries in the front row Eifion Roberts is being criminally overlooked. He is the archetypal tight-head, with the added dimension of being 21 stone, has played most games for his club this year even scoring the odd try, and I cannot see why someone like Paul James, a loose-head, is a better option.
I hope the difference of opinion between myself and Gatland based solely on on-field issues, as Roberts cannot do anything about where he was born.
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November 3, 2009 in Autumn Internationals, Wales | Permalink|
Comments
Very interesting piece! Am I right in thinking that quite alot of people in North Wales support Liverpool football club? The irony of the "most Welsh place on earth" having stronger links to an English professional club than to a Welsh one does tickle me...
Posted by: Nick C | Nov 3, 2009 11:35:03 AM
They are probably equaly split between Liverpool, Everton and Man U. Very few follow Wrexham, which I think is a real shame.
To clarify, the whole of North Wales isn't "the most Welsh place on earth", but certainly pockets of it can claim to be if you are using the language as a barometer. Personally I think every part of Wales is as Welsh as the other one. However, the Welsh themselves have a peculiar notion of places being "more Welsh than others": the North West of Wales believes it is more Welsh than anywhere else; North East Wales is universally maligned by the rest as being "scouse" and not really "proper welsh", likewise the parts like Caldicot that are east of Newport.
I think it all stems from a notion of "purity" among a lot of the populace. Being nearer the border with the English means you are somehow contaminated and moreover often don't have a "proper" accent, so if you live a distance from the border AND you speak Welsh as a first language then you can claim some kind of cultural superiority over your other countrymen. England has a north-south divide of course, but never is whether one area is English to a greater or lesser extent part of this divide; something that is an issue in Wales in my experience.
Admittedly this is a totally subjective, ill-researched and cod-sociological appraisal, but despite being English I did live in Cardiff for six years and have lived in North East Wales for about 12 years in total so I do come from a standpoint of lived experience.
Posted by: Blood and Mud | Nov 3, 2009 11:57:31 AM
I confess, I’m a little confused as to your point…
If Gatland hated North Wales, would Robin McBryde (from Bangor) be his forwards coach? Somewhat unlikely.
You could perhaps contend that North Walian players are overlooked by the Regions, but the Scarlets had a look at Lewis-Roberts and weren't interested.
The reason he's not been picked is because Gatland doesn't rate him - he's been in a previous squad (so he’s clearly been looked at), he's a recently converted loosehead (and doesn’t yet look the finished article on the tight) and his conditioning isn't anywhere near international standards (although improvements have apparently been made).
What’s more, he wouldn’t be available to face the All Blacks anyway owing to the absence of a player release agreement between the WRU and Premiership clubs!
Perhaps the story might have been different had the Scarlets picked him up before he went to Sale, but that doesn’t really seem the point of the article?
Posted by: Alan | Nov 3, 2009 12:51:10 PM
Alan, there are two points to the article (and I admit that the headline is deliberately inflammatory - gotta get people reading somehow!).
Firstly, that there seems to be a loophole whereby North Walian players could be missed by the WRU as in my time up here there is little evidence of the Scarlets really giving a shit, something I doubt they would allow to happen if decent players were bleeding into the West Country from the South; and second, that Roberts is a better option than Paul James at present.
The second issue is simply a matter of opinion and I accept that as such there will be disagreements on this - and I take your point that he would not be available for Sat anyway, but that is by the by as he is not even named in the squad for the Autumn - but I think that his conditioning is better than people believe, he's simply a very big lad.
But the first issue, which is perhaps the biggest one, suggests a more structural problem that perhaps Roberts may be drawing attention to.
Posted by: Blood and Mud | Nov 3, 2009 1:10:27 PM
With regards your first point, I'd agree. It's something that the WRU have belatedly twigged is a problem...
http://www.wru.co.uk/18874.php
...albeit that there's been talk of 'doing something' in North Wales for longer than I care to remember.
Posted by: Alan | Nov 3, 2009 1:29:10 PM
As has been acknowledged in the comments, Gatland couldn't pick Roberts for the ABs game anyway (though I don't understand why, because England also have a game on Saturday? Is this just Premier Rugby being really childish)? Gatland's recent comments about the GP being shit were more about trying to make people like Roberts and Peel think about their next club than they were about trying to wind up the English.
On the general subject of North Wales, it's simply a matter of numbers. North Wales is a football-centric part of the country, rugby is a minority sport. The Scarlets did play a few games up there to the one man and his dog who bothered to turn up to watch them, so they stopped. My uncle is quite senior in the FAW (Football...) and he seems to have the opposite problem i.e. a lot of his time, money, marketing etc. is spent in North Wales because he knows that is where the game is strongest in Wales (outside the Swansea and Cardiff metro areas).
As for North Wales being the real Wales ... here is where my rant gets personal :-) Gogs love to think of themselves as the real Wales. They sit in their slate lined houses moaning about everything being built "down there in Cardiff" because of course, everything should be built in the two horse town of Bangor, where the real Welsh live. The real Welsh who speak a virtually different version of Welsh to us down South (trust me, as a Welsh learner now for 3 years I find it incredibly hard to effectively have to learn the language twice, once for us, once for the Gog version of everything), the real Welsh who piss and moan about the price of everything every time they come down to Cardiff to watch a game. The real Welsh who are the only race of people I have ever met, on earth, who will refuse to speak to you in English even though they know both you and they share it as a common language. So it wouldn't surprise me that, if Gatland has spent even the odd afternoon learning Welsh (WRU policy is to give lessons to all employees), he'd have a deep seated hatred for the bloody Gogs as well.
Posted by: brighty | Nov 3, 2009 1:47:42 PM
Brighty, you have pretty much proved my point there. Although, the Gogs could equally say that you speak a different version of Welsh to them. Which one is the most genuine version is something of a moot point, A lot of ancient languages are like that though, Irish was a total clusterfuck of dialects until they standardised and simplified it fairly recently. But, you have to admit that Welsh is more of a "living" language in the North West and Western areas.
I also think that when using the term "Gog" is used as a perjorative term, what most people mean are referring to is southern part of Denbighshire. most of Gwynedd and the northern part of Ceredigion. This must be separated from Flintshire and Wrexham, which has a pretty low percentage of Welsh speakers.
How did we get onto this? Is it my fault? I rather feel it is....
Posted by: Blood and Mud | Nov 3, 2009 2:03:19 PM
Hopefully you'll take my comments with a pinch of salt, especially given I wrote them while trying to do my Welsh homework...
Back to the rugby, I don't actually see Roberts as particularly good anyway? When the Blues played Sale recently he didn't seem to set the world alight, they struggled to overcome a Blues side that have not been playing well this year.
Gatland had a bit of a point about the GP (that's relevant to this post cos I don't think Gatland is anti North wales at all, he's just trying to get all Welsh qualified players to play in Wales, to avoid situations like Peel not being able to play this weekend) in that it's no longer the league everyone looks up to. A few years back any Welsh player in the GP would have been rushed into the Welsh setup, under the assumption that if he's good enough for the GP he must be excellent (hence the laughable inclusion of Will James in the world cup) but that's simply not the case anymore. Even the power game isn't so distinctly better in the GP anymore...
Posted by: brighty | Nov 3, 2009 2:22:57 PM
As far as I can see Gatland had very little choice. when it comes down to it we would be better off with Roberts there - BUT only if he could play the NZ game, and he can't.
That leaves us in a situation where we have to have a stop gap measure vs the All Blacks anyway (presumably paul james no matter what happened). Now Craig Mitchell, the very young Ospreys tighthead, is called up to play the smaller games to give him experience because this is a guy with a huge amount of potential and gats whats to bring him on.
So that means PJ has to start the AB game and Mitchell would be starting the two other games, leaving just the Aussie game. do we call Roberts into the squad for just one game? How does that make the moral in the camp? how does it effect the dynamic of a squad that will have been together for 2 weeks before roberts can even join them?
Its a tough call, but I get the impression that Gats has had enough of not getting his English based players when he wants them (see the Peel/GP comments) and so has decided, blow it, lets set a lesson. See Delve not being there too.
This has nothign to do with gogs, who the WRU are trying to help out (in an odd manner) with the canadians coming over, this has to do with player availability, and until Roberts secures his release for games in teh same way Johnny or Haskell have got the EPS rules written into their contracts then he can expect to only be used in an emergency
Posted by: Rugby Nick | Nov 3, 2009 4:12:22 PM
Yes your headline did get my attention, as has some of the broad brushed assumptions that follow from other contributors.
Gatland is simply speaking his mind, I think we've learned by now he is not only happy to rile a few people, but actually seems to enjoy it. N. Wales not having it's on region means players have to look elsewhere for top level rugby. incidentally having only circa 30% of the population and a large part of that being football focused is the reason there isn't one. There's been talk of an additional region in either N. Wales or one of the valley's hot beds for rugby - but there isn't the money in Welsh rugby as there is in English Rugby. Although I think they're probably next on the list ... when funding allows. I hope this is v. soon, there could be a mass of prospective talent being lost here (for a Nation of only 3 million.)
He is however backing the 'Welsh-based first' policy that works in NZ and for a player base the size of Wales with it's comparatively low funding level is a wise and just move. Eifion seems a little unlucky, but Gatland's got to draw the line somewhere and some pretty big names are feeling the brunt of this - if across the board all things are near equal, Gatland and WRU want the Welsh based players. this will strengthen the Welsh teams, the Mageners and in turn the National team.
I feel the next year or two will see other Unions follow suit and a return of many players aspiring to play for Wales.
'Real Welsh' - I won't get into N v S banter most Northerners and southerners will happily get on together when in a pub (my experience the Us and them bunch are in a minority on both sides) and this is often overplayed.
NB. Liverpool was often described as Welsh or Irish 'built' North Wallian's and Irish have settled in there tens of thousands, often in as short a period as a decade. This led to whole streets and areas being Welsh speaking of having Welsh names and of Welsh decent. The idea of supporting an 'English city' visible over the water that is in many ways 'quite Welsh' or wider 'Celtic' seems as logical to supporting one up to 6 hours away in the South.
(and yes this tangent is probably your fault ;o))
Posted by: Jonathan | Nov 3, 2009 4:45:48 PM
apologies from the garbled layout of my responses earlier, I was using the "respond by email" funtion, which appears to mangle things slightly.
Posted by: lee_editor | Nov 3, 2009 5:26:35 PM
Getting (slightly) back on point, just because hes 21 stone does not make him a monster on the tighthead. I dont have an opinion on Gatland's decision, but at that weight, and recently converted from loosehead, I would question his scrummaging technique. Case(s) in point, Julian White, just over 18 1/2 stone (in tighthead terms not massive at all), yet an absolute rock (despite apparently not having any other facets to his game). Then Os Du Randt, 22 stone, and got anialated (sp?) by 16 stone Wallace in the '97 lions. Reason? Technique.
Just realised how long this rant is, will shut up now.
Posted by: ScrumGuru | Nov 4, 2009 7:38:23 PM
